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Powerlessness

for 8 år siden 0 +0 / -0 54

David, it's all good here - I know you are just sharing what you've learned and how you see things. I can't speak for TS, but if the AA 12 step program helps people then I see it as a good thing, even if certain parts of it don't float my boat. And being of an analytical sort I do not dismiss anything wholesale - I pick it over to see if I can find useable parts and fit them together with other things I've observed and learned. I have also been reading some of the material that folks such as foxman and yourself post or point us to with great interest as I know I'll find at least some information that is just as relevant to the 'non-spiritually-inclined'.

As for going it on willpower alone, well, you don't bring a knife to a gunfight as the saying goes... willpower alone has not carried me very far in the past. In the absence of a higher power to call on, equip that willpower with lots of information and support however, and I just may stand a better chance. The information and support I'm referring to comes in many, many forms from many types of source. You might even say that my thirst for that information and my ability to recognize and use it to my advantage is the closest thing I'll have to a 'higher power'. Whether that power comes from within or without is a moot point to me as the question will never be answered. Know that yourself, foxman and all the other good people on this forum are one part of the fuel that power runs on. :)

Will it be enough? Can't say, time will tell.

for 8 år siden 0 +0 / -0 154

SPMW and toxicsoul, I always respect other's beliefs and perceptions. I never said you or anyone had to strictly follow or adhere to AA's twelve steps. I simply pointed out that many of us alcoholics cannot do it on sheer will power alone no matter how hard we try, so then where does that leave us?

Wishing you both the best with your "will power" and "self-efforts" to quit alcohol for good. And if you are able to, all the more power to you.

for 8 år siden 0 +0 / -0 1562

Again, we are taking responsibility for our actions and sharing our shame.

We are not sharing our shame. We are sharing Resentments, Fear and Relationship issues with another person (a person who can help us see the selfishness and self-centeredness) in each one of them.

In the book you see Bill shares his own resentment toward his friend, his wife.......And shows where it impacted his self-esteem, pride, ambition, security......

As we look at each one of the incidence you see the Ego. We see how our self-will has been driving our whole thought process. We awaken. Next time we have an issue, we apply the findings and let go. Its not easy, but with practice we get over it.

We are elevating our consciousness/awareness/mindfulness.....some call it relationship with GOD.

for 8 år siden 0 +0 / -0 1562

Further, “the queer mental twist” that happens after the first drink is not weird at all in that a person that has an issue with alcohol

No, the queer mental twist happens BEFORE the first drink. The alcoholic/problem drinker (whatever you call it), swears that he/she is not going to drink. If you give him lie detector test he/she would pass 100%. But then the mental twist happens and picks up a drink. Then the craving happens.

That is the 2 aspect of powerlessness. One before and one after. The mental part is the issue of every abnormal drinker.

And we break the un-manageability into two. Internal and External un-manageability. Again the internal un-manageability is the key. Its the subtle depression, boredom, irritability, restlessness, anxiety.... all, if not treated, leads you back to the 'Blind Spot'.

for 8 år siden 0 +0 / -0 54

TS, you've certainly touched on a couple of things I don't get about the 12 steps...

#1 and #5 are just incompatible to me. If I am delegating responsibility for sorting this mess out to a higher power I am not taking responsibility / accountability for it. I have never hesitated to take full responsibility for my actions.

#8 and #9. I can see some benefit to taking stock of all the people I've pissed off. It would help me remain aware of the damage I've done. As for #9 though I am 100% certain not one of them want to hear from me. Not even for an apology. It's been too long and I just don't piss people off in a lovable way. So it's not that #9 makes no sense (it might in some cases, for some people), for me it's just not implementable.

for 8 år siden 0 +0 / -0 345

I have again studied the 12 steps just to be absolutely sure I understood what exactly they meant and the following is how I perceive them.

#1 I personally believe that if you truly feel you are powerless over alcohol, you will never be able to leave it alone. It is a self-defeating statement. I agree that you can admit that your life has become unmanageable in that alcohol can and does have devastating effects on many people’s lives.

#2 I believe from what I’ve gleaned from others shares, that we all agree that “god” or whatever we perceive to be our god, is within us all. It’s called “will power.” Therefore, the power cannot be greater than ourselves, if it “is” ourselves.

#3 What this statement essentially says is that we are now taking responsibility for ourselves and our actions.

#4 We then become introspective and determine what needs to be changed.

#5 Again, we are taking responsibility for our actions and sharing our shame.

#6 We are now ready to fix ourselves.

#7 We are now going to fix ourselves. (But, it doesn't tell you how.)

#8 We are going to start by making a list of the people we’ve pissed off and ready ourselves to make things right with them. (Who can remember?)

#9 We go ahead and apologize to everyone however avoid anyone who wants nothing further to do with you. (Usually do that the day following the drunk anyway)

#10 Not even sure what this means other than admitting that perhaps we weren’t hard enough on ourselves. (Shall we just continue to beat ourselves up?)

#11 You are now hoping you have the strength to stay sober so that you can function. (How are you going to do that? Will power alone?)

#12 By repeating this over and over again, by telling others over and over again, you hopefully brainwash yourself so that alcohol will no longer have any favorable meaning in your life. (This would make me want to drink.)

Further, “the queer mental twist” that happens after the first drink is not weird at all in that a person that has an issue with alcohol (maybe even those that don't) wants that buzz. Therefore the “phenomena of craving” is not so astonishing or remarkable in that there are not a lot of people who will get a buzz from one or two drinks. Consequently, the individual who is looking for the reward of the dopamine effect will pound back a bunch.

The twelve steps are not magical or even very helpful in my opinion. It sets the stage for behavior modification but fails to give you enough tools to execute the process. It relies heavily on will power, brain washing through…repeat, repeat, repeat the same mantra and scaring people by including stories of people who failed to work the steps and ended up in horrible circumstances or dead.

Being proactive by educating individuals and giving them the necessary tools to help modify their behavior and ultimately rewiring their brains should logically realize greater long term results.

I would like to offer my kudos to the individuals that have had success with this program and for going forward and helping others. However, I know for myself, that the 12 step program is not nearly enough.

for 8 år siden 0 +0 / -0 1562

Its the ego that does that. Identification with your mind, Eckhart calls it. I am sure you read this part:

The mind can never find the solution, nor can it afford to allow you to find the solution, because it is itself an intrinsic part of the "problem." Imagine a chief of police trying to find an arsonist when the arsonist is the chief of police. You will not be free of that pain until you cease to derive your sense of self from identification with the mind, which is to say from ego. The mind is then toppled from its place of power and Being reveals itself as your true nature.

for 8 år siden 0 +0 / -0 154

Self-will, self-power, self-reliance, self-pride and ego, self-ishness. When we speak of "evil," from a spiritual perspective, are we not speaking of ourselves? It has absolutely nothing to do with the "devil made me do it," we do it to ourselves, and unfortunately to others.

for 8 år siden 0 +0 / -0 1562

Yes CryptKeeper,

What happened to me is, after the process, I was able to look back and take a look at all the good stuff that has happened to me with gratitude. There is somethig that always led me in the right direction. Exactly like the book says, we always have some fundamental idea of this power it just got obscured by self-will.

for 8 år siden 0 +0 / -0 154

Good day Mr. Foxman,

That last (summary) sentence of yours below is pregnant with meaning and truth:

"1) Clean house; 2) Find God (actually I'd like to believe He isn't lost or hard to find since He dwells within you; and 3) Help others.

Could not have expressed it any better myself in a thousand years.

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Powerlessness